Here is the key passage from the ADL statement:
Proponents of the Islamic Center may have every right to build at this site, and may even have chosen the site to send a positive message about Islam. The bigotry some have expressed in attacking them is unfair, and wrong. But ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.Predictably, the surprising announcement has set off a fury of "first they came for" statements from the left-wing bloggers who usually act in sympathy with the ADL - except when it comes to Israel. The schism between pro-Israel Jews and Israel-meh Jews has been exposed in full force.
People who probably threw hissy fits as kids about having to go to Hebrew School instead of being able to watch TV after public school now remember the lessons learned in religious class as if they were Talmudic scholars.
I think the ADL is dancing around the issue. I don't believe the ADL is motivated primarily by sensitivities to the feelings of victims.
Rather, the ADL, like many of us, does not want to deal with the reality that regardless of the motivations of the individuals who will visit the Mosque, al-Qaeda and Islamists will portray the Mosque complex as the final conquest of The World Trade Center.
The thought of Adam Ghadan, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, or Osama bin Laden issuing a video or audiotape crowing about the ultimate victory, is too much for most Americans of all religions to bear.
The people behind and supporting the Cordoba Mosque surely know that it is not about religious freedom. No one is preventing the building of Mosques in New York City.
At the end of the day, we as a free society must err in favor of allowing the building of religious institutions anywhere religion-neutral laws allow. But that does not change the truth of what is going on with the Cordoba Mosque.
They should have picked a different location. Because respect is not a one-way street.
Update 8/1/2010: Some -- but not all -- of the criticisms of this post are fair. I still reach the same conclusion, but I might say it a little differently. I think the ADL is struggling to balance religious liberty with the clear history of large Islamic centers in Europe and the U.S. being used for radical purposes, both by the people funding the operations and by radical Islamist elements abroad. The centers never start out with radicalism as a stated goal, but seem to turn in that direction with frightening frequency. To have such a center so close to Ground Zero raises such concerns even more so because there is no doubt that al-Qaeda and other radicals will try to use the location to their advantage. Given the highly charged nature of Ground Zero, the organizers should have picked a different location for such a large and high profile complex.
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They cannot even determine the source of the funds to build it ,how anyone can approve this mosque is beyond my comprehension .
ReplyDeleteThey are building this mosque for the purpose of NOT showing respect. Whether the politically correct crowd wants to deal with the reality of Islamic hatred toward the west or not it exists and it is funded by the Saudi government and its organizations and minions. That they are using our own openeness to destroy us is no surpirse. Fascists and totalitarian movements have used democratic aegisis to undermine democracy itself in the past and the Islamists, unlike us, have learned their lessons well from history.It is interesting that the moment that anyone condemns the mosque, charges of racism and islamaophobia are leveled. If you have a position that is of merit you don't need to call anyone names. It shows the bad intentions behind this mosque. Remember there are over 200 mosques in the NYC area, so I don't think New Yorkers are afraid of Islam or the ideology of Islam. What we dont' like is to have someone insult the memories of our dead children.
ReplyDeleteIf Bloomberg allows this to go through, I call for a recall of the Mayor and the entire city council.
Don't mean to change the subject. But I think the tea party should have an ADL-type division to challenge the media and politicians who are constantly defaming tax-protesting citizens, conservatives and Republicans.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for this post. No matter the reason, I'm just very grateful that the ADL came out against the building of the mosque at Ground Zero.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
"Rather, the ADL, like many of us, does not want to deal with the reality that regardless of the motivations of the individuals who will visit the Mosque, al-Qaeda and Islamists will portray the Mosque complex as the final conquest of The World Trade Center."
What I don't get is why couldn't the ADL admit that publicly? It is what the majority of freedom loving Americans think about the reasons why this terrorist supporting and funding group behind the mosque are doing it.
Did they have to come up with the victims families being hurt reason (which is a good one, of course) just because it was a good politically correct answer? Or was there also fear on their part in revealing the truth?
I'm for building the Mosque... right after the city calls for the additional construction of a Church, a Synagogue, a Hindu temple and Buddhist Shrine on the same street.
ReplyDeleteBetter yet, get the proponents of the islamic center to put the money where their 'religious tolerance' mouth is. Have them pay for these buildings.
Agreed. This is a conquest. If we allow it, we have surrendered every shred of credibility and self respect. Not to mention dishonoring the victims.
ReplyDelete"... respect is not a one-way street."
ReplyDelete=================
Except for thugs. They require "due respect" no-matter-what.
You may well note how Islam's insistence on "respect" matches gangbangers' insistence on the same -- and the identical reactions if a whiff of "disrespect" is sensed: "You be disrespectin' me, Im'a gonna havta kill you" is both groups' response to any perceived slight.
As for me, I'm on the side of "Until YOU stop being disrespectful to ME; until you do something I consider worthy of respect; and considering your appalling behavior in the past; OF COURSE I WON'T SHOW RESPECT FOR YOU. Now take your imagined grievances and your threatening attitude and get out of here."
You say "they should have picked a different site" as if they could choose any site they wanted to erect a huge mosque. Who allowed them this site? Why was this site even available for a mosque? Why not a church? Or a non-denominational community center? None of this makes any sense.
ReplyDeleteOrdinarily I agree with your positions completely. This time I believe you are off base.
ReplyDeleteIf one accepts the Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, MPAC, etc., etc. narrative and nonsense that Islam is a “religion of peace” then I suppose one could make the conclusion that we must ere on the side of religious tolerance.
However, when one reads the Qur’an it is obvious that Islam is in fact primarily a political and social regime, masquerading as a religion invented by a 7th century nomadic self described prophet. This cancer has decimated the Middle East, and is once again corrupting Europe. The evidence is there if we look. It makes no more sense to allow this mosque to be built on that site in New York than it would have been to allow the Japanese government to erect a Shinto shrine in the name of “tolerance” and “remembrance” overlooking the site of the USS Arizona’s resting place in Hawaii.
In the United States we practice tolerance by allowing convicted murderers walk free after they have served their sentence. We do not allow them to walk the streets armed, nor do we allow them to gloat at the site of the murders they committed, or rub it in the faces of the families of those victims.
We are not a stupid people, and our Founders were not inept, handwringing, apologetic fatalists who felt they must accept any treatment dished out by the tyrant of the moment.
Enough.
"The thought of Adam Ghadan, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, or Osama bin Laden issuing a video or audiotape crowing about the ultimate victory, is too much for most Americans of all religions to bear."
ReplyDeleteWhich, of course, is unmitigated STUPIDITY. Why the hell do you care what they think, or why do you care about the lie you're afraid they'll tell?
Honest to God, you people are worthless.
"I hold the view that when it comes to important issues - what people (we) say about our motivations is seldom the most important driving factor, or in some cases, is seldom any factor at all. To protect the desired outcome we non-consciously mold our explanations and justifications to garner the greatest possible support from our audience - either for our cause, our own esteem - or both.
ReplyDeleteYou have provided a perfect example of this facet of human nature. In my case I was uneasy about the Cordoba house but couldn't really explain why to myself or others. I think you hit the nail on the head. My head, anyway. I suspect I was trying not to think of myself as a bigot but knew the Islamist clerics would be crowing in their mosques that this proves how weak the West is and how surely Islam will conquer us.
I watched the clip of Obama on "the View." I watched as the audience composed mostly of white women applauded and cheered the race-baiting Obama spin his lies about jobs, the economy, and immigration. Do these people have NO CLUE what is happening in this country? I know men who have committed suicide because they and their family are losing their jobs, their houses, their fortunes large and small. I know women who have seriously considered turning to prostitution to support themselves. BY GOD I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE! AND I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE. This isn't about Obama feeling our pain; this is about Obama causing our pain, and not giving a good goddamn that we are feeling pain, while he jets off to Davos, or New York, or Maine to vacation with the wife kids on our dime. The day of judgement is coming ... I'm talking about the real everyday people you can meet across this nation. Obama hear us: WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU BELIEVE. You're a Marxist and the greatest deceiver in the history of the world. God have mercy on you because we won't.
ReplyDeleteIf one accepts the Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, MPAC, etc., etc. narrative and nonsense that Islam is a “religion of peace” then I suppose one could make the conclusion that we must ere on the side of religious tolerance.
ReplyDelete"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."
-- George W. Bush
GW Bush: what a PC multiculturalist appeaser.
This post and the people agreeing with it are disgusting and juvenile. Obviously if the mosque is banned, Al Qaeda wins, and the US is shown as a cowed nation of weaklings with no principles that is threatened and irreparably damaged by every tiny, sad organization that might wish it harm. If the mosque built, we win and show that our nation really does stand strong upon the tenets for which it was founded, notably including religious freedom and a secular state.
ReplyDeleteRather, the ADL, like many of us, does not want to deal with the reality that regardless of the motivations of the individuals who will visit the Mosque, al-Qaeda and Islamists will portray the Mosque complex as the final conquest of The World Trade Center.
ReplyDeletemy god, that's the most ridiculous logic i have ever heard. i mean, the spokespeople for al-qaeda are propagandists. they take anything that happens and spin it into a victory for their cause. the american invasion of iraq has already gone down in jihadist web sites as a victory for al-qaeda, so is the war in afghanistan, so is the collapse of lehman brothers! seriously, everything. "al-qaeda may see the news and claim victory if we do X" is not a rational standard for making decisions because X can be anything and everything.
on top of that, it's just as likely that al-qaeda will take the news of a blocked islamic center in lower manhattan of proof of their victory, as they would for the building of an islamic center. first, the people building the center are the wrong kind of muslim. they're too ecumenical for the wahabbis. the center has jews and christians on their governing board. that's not exactly al-qaeda's brand. they would cheer any suppression of that kind of islam. second, stopping he center will support their claim that the "war on terror" is nothing more than anti-muslim bigotry.
what's amazing to me about the whole ADL statement is how thoroughly abe foxman has destroyed the reputation of the ADL. for 100 years that organization has earned a reputation for standing up for the civil rights of all religious groups, including muslims. nowadays, they barely focus at all on actual religious bigotry at all (they don't even both much with domestic anti-semitism any more). instead they're spending their time carrying water for the far right in israel.
it's a sad state of affairs for an organization that i used to think quite highly of. i think the the ridiculous defense of them in his post itself speaks volumes for how indefensible it actually is.
"I'm for building the Mosque... right after the city calls for the additional construction of a Church, a Synagogue, a Hindu temple and Buddhist Shrine on the same street. Better yet, get the proponents of the islamic center to put the money where their 'religious tolerance' mouth is. Have them pay for these buildings."
ReplyDeleteThis is my favorite comment of all time. It's New York City's job to "call for the additional construction of a Church, a Synagogue, a Hindu temple and Buddhist Shrine" and the Muslim community of New York's job to pay for them.
I agree with you. A mosque on the site would be a symbol of violent Islamic conquest, a victory for totalitarian Islamism.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I wonder why the ADL - an organization which will continue to enjoy my full support - felt compelled to say anything about this at all.
No, people - a mosque on the site would be a mosque on the site. It wouldn't be a "symbol" of anything other than religious tolerance, and that the 9/11 attacks had everything to do with hate.
ReplyDeleteMy question is: why do you support Al Qaeda's goal of making this a war of Christianity against the Muslim faith?
Pop quiz: What if the mosque isn't Sunni - what if it's Shi'ite? Remember, Al Qaeda's primarily Sunni - and the Sunnis feel the same way about Shi'ites as the Protestants in Northern Ireland felt about the Catholics.
It isn't about religion - it's about people trying to popularize their own prejudices and hatreds by playing on people's religious beliefs. Osama bin Ladin uses it to motivate suicide bombers - and Professor Jacobsen is using it in the post above to motivate religious bigotry. Same coin, different side.
I find it remarkable that so many conservatives would find it intolerable that there is a possibility of AQ using this community center with jews and christians on the board as a propaganda exercise. In my opinion, that would be great, because then the moderate muslims of the initiative would have a great platform for pushback. As to the ADL, they seem to forget that AQ has killed thousands and thousands of civilian muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Does not the family of those victims deserve some dignity too? Or the muslim troops and terps serving with the US Army? Are y`all comfortable with backing a initiative originally founded by Pamela Geller, who calls arabs subhuman and openly advocates racewar?
ReplyDeleteToo weird.