Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion

"Sworn, lawful, legitimate." The loaded bases, home run swing for a "grand slam" of civil and criminal liability. It's all fun and games until someone files a lawsuit. If cops are going to sleep with demonstrators someone will want into those cops' pocket and it won't be for pocket change. It will be for assets. Lay down with them and see what you get up with. Who gets the royalty when I say, "Pass the popcorn!"

Fire them all.

If this holds I can see use of the National Guard and they Will up hold their Oath and Soldiers creed.

although this is a little off topic, why doesn't the border States call in the National Guard for boarder defense?

"It appears that by the end of today we will know whether the police union members' talk of insurrection was bluster (which I suspect is the case), or if they really will risk their careers by disobeying lawful orders from legitimate and duly elected state authority."

You're up late, P. So am I. :-)

The outcome depends on in which direction, in extremis, the muzzles of police and military point. I predict that, in preponderance, they will point in the direction that upholds constitutionality. In this case, that means Governor Walker.

I agree with JoAnne. If they disobey a dirrect, LEGAL edit from the Governor (or legislature), who is to say they won't disregard other laws they have sworn to uphold. I'm sure the Wisconsin National Guard is capable of withholding the peace until new (read: non-union) officers can be trained.

Gov. Walker has been given a tremendous opportunity to right a terrible wrong and I hope he continues to stay steadfast in his beliefs.

Is this The Coming Insurrection?

"More than anything, this shows the dangers of public sector unions. Those who work for the state occupy a different position than those who work in the private sector because they carry the weight of state authority. When those state workers are in law enforcement, they carry special obligations not to use their positions for political purposes."

Bingo! This demonstrates why FDR said public unions are wrong.

By the way, the police also carry guns. This could get VERY ugly, if they follow through with this.

Then Walker needs to break ALL the unions in WI. The public sector are paid by taxpayers; their responsibility is to us, not to the unions. Walker should pull a Reagan, fire every last man and call in the NG. The Legislature needs to pass a law that public sector workers cannot be unionized. Once Walker signs that, then he can rehired. In the meantime, WI has gun laws so people can protect themselves, their homes, and their property. It is clear that the police are interested in pigging out at the public trough rather than serving the public. How can a pig feed at an empty trough?

The Unions know what they're doing when they get the "compassionate trades" on board. The Union Corporation CEOs hide their agenda behind the "it's for the chirren!" mantra: education and civic order-- not to mention firefighters-- so that any attempt to reign in the cash-drain can be trumpeted as an assault on "the chirren!"

Inasmuch as they've failed to unionize Healthcare, they've collaborated to nationalize it because it fits the template; thus we see doctors abetting the cause because they see what's coming.

Their god is in their belly. They have no ideology but Self.

They vilify the Military because they know it to be the only substantive political body that serves an ideology first and are willing to sacrifice for it. They will force us to seek our shelter behind such men and women and then paint us all as a military junta.

The only way to win this game is to provide them with no traction on their chosen field of battle: the hearts and minds of America must be won by individual effort.

Time to go Coolidge and Reagan on them: fire the cops who won't clear out the protesters, give the union 24 hours to get all of its people back to work or decertify all of the unions for breach of contract, call out the National Guard and clear out the capitol.

Whenever I hear of state budget cuts there's alway mention of how we can't cut cops. I'm pretty sure the police are no longer going to be considered an "essential service" by any state after being tainted by their union affiliation.

They should follow their orders. That's what good nazis do.

One might point out that prior to the advent of the "professional" police department, police work was largely a voluntary affair. Communities would appoint a chief who would recruit officers to volunteer for patrol duty. I should know; I was one of the last of that generation. Niothing says we can't fire the professionals and return to this model.

That thin blue line is looking a little pink.

Yeah, tq, because clearing the Capitol of protesters after they've had the chance to make their point for two weeks would be just like Kristallnacht or something. Don't be a twit.

tgwhite said "They should follow their orders. That's what good nazis do." -- so are you suggesting that any police action is exactly the same as the nazis sending people to the gas chamber? Asking squatters who are disrupting the legislative session in Wisconson is just like the Nazis?. That kind of ridiculous hyperbole is what makes it difficult to take anything leftists say seriously.

This finally blows a big hole through the argument for exempting police and firefighters from being stripped of their unconstitutional power to unionize and shake down taxpayers. Since there is no agreement to stay out of it and those choose not to stay out of it, they might as well be part of the solution. Besides, police and fire unions are where the most egregious abuses take place.

Forgot to add that Walker should very publicly issue an order for the National Guard to prepare to relieve the police of their duties. No negotiations. Just do it.

Down here in Tejas they would just be fired. Would not even be able to get a taxi lic. after getting the boot from the PD.

Will our esteemed "everybody's President" have something to say about the incipient threat of lawless law in WI, or does he just use his bully pulpit to support famous Harvard law profs with an attitude?

Solution, maybe?

Deed Wisconsin to the Canadians. Let THEM deal with these, dare I say "people".

The Canadian Football League would love to have the Packers.

Remember all the hue and cry about Oathkeepers, the loose, informal order of law enforcement officers and active duty soldiers who have vowed not to obey superiors' orders that they believe violate the Constitution? That organization ostensibly rose out of overblown concerns that the Obamastration might have plans for lethal crowd control in a "SHTF" scenario or if a dictatorial power play occurred.

To look at the movement without jaundice, however, Oathkeepers could be viewed as the American brethren of the Libyan forces who either fled Gaddafi-land rather than slaughter their fellow countrymen and/or helped rebels drive loyalists from city after city, pushing them back toward Tripoli for a showdown the dictator will likely eventually lose. In any event, what Oathkeepers stands for is higher-minded and more in line with the vow to protect the public than what these union cops are apparently whispering about: They are ready to select which Wisconsinites are worthy of protection based on whether it strengthens or weakens them politically.

NOT what you want out of law enforcement, is it?

"Time to go Coolidge and Reagan on them: fire the cops who won't clear out the protesters, give the union 24 hours to get all of its people back to work or decertify all of the unions for breach of contract, call out the National Guard and clear out the capitol. "

Can't just stop there. They need to be de-commissioned from their firearm, carry permits & arrest powers so that anything done by them will be criminal and processecutable.

It was announced that the Capital would be closed and the people made to clear out for maintainence purposes. Can you imagine what that building looks like and how it must smell? There has been no maintainence on the bathrooms for almost two weeks. And we all know, protesting hippies with drums are not exactly the cleanest, neatest people on earth. I suggest you Google the aftermath of the Commie gathering on the Washington Mall on 10-2-10. It looked like a city dump.

It seems to me that the Governor has the authority to close the building to allow maintainence workers do their jobs. If the police refuse to do their jobs, they should be relieved of duty immediately. It is NOT an "unconstitutional" order to clear the building to be cleaned. The Governor is NOT shutting the building down permanently, he is simply saying it is time to clean it.

"Duty, honor, country" seems to take second place to "union" for these Wisconsin police officers.

Yesterday, the head of the CWA was on Fox and at least he was honest about why all this is happening in Wisconsin. He said it was now Democrat vs. Republican and that since the Democrats have always pandered to the unions, the unions in Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio are going to support the Democrats. Guess he didn't get Obama's message when Obama said "elections have consequences."

It is my understanding that the unions, especially the AFSCME, is dumping millions of $$ into Wisconsin to support the protestors. Good, because if they spend all their money, come next year, they won't have another $84 million to dump into Obama's campaign coffers. So let them spend all those union dues in Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio. In the end, it will prove to be wasted money that is hard to replace.

The longer this goes on, the longer the ordinary taxpayer has to lose pay to stay home with their kids who are not in school, or pay someone to take care of the kids while they work, the less sympathy the teachers are going to get.

And since Wisconsin legislators need a quorom for only budgetary issues, they should pass a "right to work" bill and be done with it. But I guess the stupid union members don't mind businesses relocating to RTW states where the cost of living is a lot less. Someone take the gun away from that protesting police officer. He is about to shoot himself in the foot.

Communities would appoint a chief who would recruit officers to volunteer for patrol duty. I should know; I was one of the last of that generation.

Hmmmm. Having a discussion about exactly that with a friend. I look at 'citizen/volunteer cop' a bit askance. That "state authority" thing is somewhat weighty.

I think it might work in smaller communities--and I mean "small." But Detroit? Chicago? Milwaukee? (Even 25,000 population suburbs of same?)

Hmmmmm.

Where can one find a good supply of that gas the Russians used to clear out the opera house, when the Chechen terrorists took it hostage?

If the police refuse to enforce the law, that's an armed insurrection. Better call on the National Guard. Remember, these union thugs are morally no different from King George. If they use violence, then it's basically state action against the citizens.

I was holding out on union-busting WRT cops and firefighters, but no longer. Bust them all, and FIRE THEM ALL if necessary!

These people have to give in to us, their bosses, or the cities and states will go bankrupt in a domino effect (once one goes, the rest will follow) and they'll ALL lose their jobs AND their pensions. After hearing Mark Levin read a letter from a retired California cop on what he and his wife make on their fat public retirement pensions and healthcare, I want them all to lose it all. This is just sick. We The People are being literally bled dry and WE HAVE HAD IT.

During our nation's history, there have been a few mini-rebellions and insurrections (e.g. the Whiskey Rebellion). The governments, correctly, used force to remove the threat. Calling in the National Guard of Wisconsin might be necessary. And, I completely agree with @jlp - their weapons need to be taken, concealed carry permits revoked, etc. to ensure these renegade police officers will be held to account fully, should they choose to refuse to do their duty.

I also concur with @retire05 about the "Right to Work" bill; that would eliminate all this bogus protesting, period.

By the way - why were these protesters allowed to take over the Capitol building, anyway? They have been given, in essence, permission to trash the place, and taxpayers' $$ will have to pay for the cleanup. Wrong on so many levels.

Isn't anyone old enough to remember the reputation the police had in the 60's? At that time the rap was they were tools of the establishment and the left hated them. Now they have been co-opted by the left and my guess is thier reputation is about to take another hit.

My solution to this entire Wi union issue is to let them have their unions in exchange for being placed under the most stringent aspects of the Hatch Act. The prohibitions would impact both individuals and unions. The issue is that the politicians have a vested interest in caving into the unions demands so the various will endorse and provide workers in the next campaign. If the unions and workers can no longer participate in partisan campaigns it would level the playing field.

1. I second the idea of passing right-to-work legislation independently of the budget.

2. After the Louisiana governor's bungling during Katrina, the Republican Congress passed and President Bush signed a bill transferring ultimate authority over a state's National Guard from the governor to the President--even for intrastate emergencies. Apparently the subsequent Democratic Congress returned intrastate command to the governors.

The foregoing is per Wikipedia but I haven't seen a discussion by someone who understands the law in depth.

2a. As my small contribution to political civility, I have not written down my nicknames for Bush and his Capitol cronies, let alone the ones for Obama et al.

3. Hopefully prudence will prevail and this policeman was not speaking for his union. If the police union refuses orders and Walker backs down, the precedent will be devastating.

Unfortunately, the educational level of these people seems to be quite low.

I'm not one to buy into elitism, but a minimum of education is necessary for these people to understand what the hell they are doing and supposedly fighting for.

Well, it's after 4.

??

Why not take this as a chance to show the unions that the people are the government, not a shiny building? Let 'em have their sleepover and hold a session of congress across town in the morning.

TQ, meet "Godwin's Law" - you lose.

The police weren't included in Walkers attack on organized public employees. The idea that their weighing in with the other unions is a non-starter. Maybe what your reader meant to say is... this is what’s wrong if the police are members of the community they serve! Maybe Walker can keep some mercenaries on retainer.

Walker’s are motivated by three things:
1) A contrived budget crisis that resulted from a tax cut;
2) resentment at the teachers' union over their resistance of the terms of Race to the Top (which they have since embraced;
3)the biggie: The privatization of public infrastructure.

The public employee unions are the greatest obstacle to selling off utilities without push-back, not only in WI but nationwide. In WI, this very bill would give the governor (and reporting tree) permission to sell WI utilities without open bidding, at any price they deem in the interest of the state. Haven't we had enough of this approach to the country's treasure?

Was it cost effective to outsource the war? No. A fiasco. Are we better off because of the Halliburton Loophole relative to Fracking and the Safe Drinking Water Act? No. A fiasco. Corporations do not act in the public interest, that was the wisdom of Friedman. They are, however, bureaucracies, hierarchical, frequently corrupt (as we have seen) and motivated only by profit seeking (the stated rules) no matter how it proves NOT in the interest of its own stockholders as human beings in a community (assuming they live on the same continent, which after-all why would they? Treaties would allow foreign buyers anyway).

There will be more resistance if the people continue to be betrayed. The people demonstrating in WI see Walker as a puppet. Now, ask yourself, WHY would they think this? Really, WHY would they think this?

All this complaining about the public employees union. They are gnats relative to the interests waiting to profit on the passage of this bill.

Saw a few missing words, revised comment below:


The police weren't included in Walkers attack on organized public employees. Maybe what your reader meant to say is... this is why the police shouldn’t be members of and loyal to the community they serve! Maybe Walker can keep some mercenaries on retainer.

Walker’s fight is motivated by three things:
1) A contrived budget crisis that resulted from a tax cut;
2) resentment at the teachers' union over their resistance of the terms of Race to the Top (which they have since embraced);
3)the biggie: privatization of public infrastructure.

The public employees’ unions are the greatest obstacle to selling off utilities without push-back, not only in WI but nationwide. In WI, this very bill would give the governor (and reporting tree) permission to sell WI utilities without open or even competitive bidding, at any price they deem in the interest of the state. Haven't we had enough of this approach to the country's treasure?

Was it cost effective to outsource the war? No. A fiasco. Are we better off because of the Halliburton Loophole exempts Fracking from the Safe Drinking Water Act? No. A fiasco. Corporations do not act in the public interest, that was the wisdom of Friedman. They are, however, bureaucracies, hierarchical, frequently corrupt (as we have seen) and motivated only by profit seeking (the stated rules) no matter how it proves NOT in the interest of its own stockholders as human beings in a community (assuming they live on the same continent, which after-all why would they? Treaties would allow foreign buyers).

There will be more resistance if the people continue to be betrayed. The people demonstrating in WI see Walker as a puppet. Now, ask yourself, WHY would they think this? Really, WHY would they think this?

All this complaining about the public employees’ unions. They are gnats relative to the interests waiting to profit on the passage of this bill.

I didn't think there was any truth to the dumb comparisons of Egypt and Wisconsin until reading this blog. Seems people who frequent this page would have been horrified at the irresponsible Egyptian military who refused the order to fire on protesters. The Governor of Wisconsin is on tape saying he considered putting troublemakers into the crowd to disrupt the peaceful nature of the protest, and the reaction of this police officer is what offends you? Wow.

Nice posting and linked: 'Wisconsin Police Union in Solidarity with Progressives, Socialists, and Big Labor Squatters — UPDATE! Police Threaten Insurrection!!'.

@laurie

You Said:
Walker’s fight is motivated by three things:
1) A contrived budget crisis that resulted from a tax cut;

PolitiFact says:
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

Wow, Laurie. You have seriously drunk deep of the liberal Kool-Aid. Public sector unions are disastrous to state budgets. That's why they were illegal until 1961. And what in God's name does gas fracking have to do with this? (Oh, you probably watched the Oscars last night. Right). Look, I understand you people are losing really, really badly. Unions, which have been steadily losing membership for decades except in the public sector where they are propped up by their captive Democrat pols, have shown their true violent colors in this Wisconsin fracas. But, seriously, get a grip on reality. It's not always a conspiracy theory involving the Koch brothers (who you just learned about). I understand that as a lazy Democrat (I know, redundant) you would prefer to live on the dole, like these public sector union thugs. But, sorry, the producers are going to let you do that. Remember, elections have consequences. You lost. We won. Time to take your medicine and act like an adult. Now, I think it's best you get on back to DKos before your feelings get hurt, missy. You're welcome.

Mike:
Your post is rude, sexist, and very presumptuous. I'd say this was a function of your being a Republican, but I know Republicans with better manners. It's you.

This post is not about cops, but you didn’t seem to have trouble with the police work for the community.

Back to your confusion. My point was that 'free market’ solutions are ideology, and they don’t even approximate efficiency without open, transparent bidding. No bid contracts (it's in the bill) will lead to waste at best and more likely abuse of power. There just isn't any systemic check against this. Likewise, unregulated industries that engage natural resources (Fracking's exemption from the SDWA) can be counted on to plunder critical resources (WATER) if doing so will increase the bottom line. That’s the ‘free market’ model. ) Enter the public sector.

Okay, you say, but no unions. And Walker clearly agrees with you. But here's another point of view from a citizen who works in the private sector, has had a small business, and paid lots of taxes:
We need the unions to protect older workers (an issue in the private sector), to keep some stability where political winds change, and most of all to protect OUR infrastructure from speedy fire-sale sell offs to corporate cronies by ambitious governors.(Organized resistance takes time if there isn’t a union-- as the Bros. Koch know—else why issue a statement that they had no interest in the WI utilities?)

One other thing about public employees: They don’t have the protections common to private sector corporate employees. There aren’t the elaborate HR processes to protect the organization and so the employee from nonsense somewhere in the ranks, there’s just the union. Teachers would be left with principals who report to superintendents pressed by fleeting political pressure, and neither of them is in the classroom. Teachers being demoralized further isn’t in the interest of the kids. (As teaching kids to disrespect the people they spend their days with is not in their interest.)

Finally, regarding you’re being a "producer" propping up those lazy Dems: What do you "produce"? Steel? Cars? Maybe... TVs? Your rhetoric needs an update.

Well, this was fun. And thanks.

Laurie,

Actually, because of civil service laws, federal, state and local, public employees have all sorts of protections not available to private sector workers. There are hearings and findings and administrative procedures that must be followed while in the private sector most employees are "at will" and can be fired without cause and no followup hearings and procedures.

Also, there are structural differences between public and private sector employment.

In the private sector the adversaries are labor and management, in the public sector labor faces off with taxpayers. In the private sector, organized labor balances the greed of labor with the greed of the stockholders. Do public employees have the same concern about working for greedy stakeholders?

In the private sector, labor negotiates, ultimately, with the people who own the business. While in the public sector, theoretically management (i.e. politicians and appointed city managers) represents the interests of the public, the reality is that they are bought and paid for by the public employee unions.

You express fears that giving school principals the power to hire and fire would result in poorer educational results. Actually, before teachers' unions took control of public education, American schools excelled.

Your anti-democratic beliefs are seen in your dismissal of "fleeting political pressure". The superintendent's job is to do the bidding of the school board, which does the bidding of the voters. What you call "fleeting political pressure" is actually how regular Americans use the democratic process to control local schools.

It seems to me that the Democratic Party's name is becoming increasingly ironic, since they really don't like to cooperate when they lose elections. Of course come to think of it, plenty of totalitarian left-wing regimes have called themselves the "Democratic Republic" of this or that, without actually being democracies or republics.

Oh, and just to tweak your feminist nose, before the feminists convinced women that they had to go to law school, society benefited from some of our brightest women becoming teachers. Of course that was when teachers had degrees in history, science and math, not education.

Since the private sector unions have shrunk in size and power, it's understandable that they would make common political cause with SEIU and AFSCME, but it's deliberately disingenuous to say that this debate is about unions.

It's not about traditional private sector unions, it's about public employee unions. They've been overpaid and overcompensated for years and their pensions are ruinous. They engage in political corruption as a matter of practice and now we are seeing that they think they can dictate policy to the voters.

Since you brought it up, Laurie, how about telling us what you currently do for a living and what kind of small business did you operate?

Autothreads:

Thanks for the long and thoughtful response. The firing procedures in the public sector seem somewhat similar (in effect) to those of large corporations-- employees are ‘at will’ but also working in an environment enlightened by the costs of replacing and retraining, and the potential for litigation.

As far as ruinous pensions, I have experienced the burden of being a post-baby boomer and been in situations where the senior staff made more than those coming in would ever make in real dollars. I'm all for equity and reasonable solutions. But many times, those who draw the big pensions aren’t in the union. But even if they were, who yielded this? If the administration that made this commitment was held politically hostage by the union, I think you’re saying the union would influence the democratic process in a way unfavorable to the administration. So, the admin. acted in self-interest. What happened to public service? Now Walker wants to eliminate the potential for a dollar-enabled machine to come up against his dollar-enabled machine. Isn't this anti-democratic? Shouldn't he let voters decide? As for any corruption, shouldn't that be in the Attny General's office instead of the Governor's?

I think democracy is sacred. But Walker didn't run on a union busting platform. He has definitely been a case of bait and switch. And the Pew Poll says he would lose an election today.

When I said schools need stability in an environment of fleeting political pressure, I wasn't being anti-democratic... it's just pragmatic. We don't reinvent institutions every time there's a change of guard. A lot of government agencies, for example, maintain a large staff of experts that are not political appointees, and who are paid to be professionals regardless of the party in power. I am thinking of USAID, but I'm sure it's true for many. Teachers are professionals. That there have not been enough ‘highly qualified teachers’ is a function of their pay and the persistent disrespect. To say nothing of the working conditions. They are saddled with teaching kids in large classes with a vast range of skill levels grouped by age (which is wrongheaded-- students should not be grouped by age). They work long hours, fill out endless reports and are always put on the defensive. I have some very smart, very effective teachers as friends (who went into it for altruistic reasons) who are weary from the disregard for them as professionals. The fact is, administrators are frequently hacks, or hostage to petty ambitions.)

One other thing re: the structure of private/ public sector negotiations. Public employees do not square off with voters-- it is with the administration hired by the voters to manage the state. Much like management has been hired by a cascade down from the CEO who is really the only one accountable to stockholders, and then only those who have a large holding to have influence. That is miserably few.

There’s a lot of Democrat bashing on this site. I just stumbled here, and I obviously don't share the views of most posters, but I am interested in hearing what they have to say. Not because ‘the Dems lost’ elections. My president is a Dem. My rep is a Dem. My state’s senators are one of each. But I really am more American than citizen of the world, and concerned about the future of our country. I think the endless fighting amongst Americans is destroying us.

Finally-- would someone please talk to the part of the bill that allows infrastructure to be sold off without open competitive bidding? From here, it looks like another chapter of corporate looting.

Sadly so much ignorance and Koolaid consumption here.....

Walker had proved himself to be a liar. First, it was about the money. The unions gave him the money, yet he still wants to kill the unions.....

Public employee unions are more professional than any of these crooked politicians.....

Overpaid? Hell No!!!
Overcompensated? Hell No!!!
Pensions ruinous? Hell No!!!

The political corruption is with the politicians, not the public sector unions.

The unions are not asking for no-bid contracts to give away state properties....

Many of those public sector workers have saved the taxpayer BILLIONS and Billions of dollars.... while the politicians have given away hundreds of billions to the crooks on Wall Street.....

As to democrats not cooperating after losing elections.... you mean like in the US Senate with more than 200 filibusters last year??????

The "budge repair" bill is designed to destroy the state's economy.

It will cut almost $1 billion from education, yet make it illegal for districts to try to find additional monies locally with property taxes.... they can not even put them on the ballot.

Walker wants to sell off state facilities with no-bid contracts ....got a buck for a power plant?

No-bid contracts did so well in Iraq and Afghanistan --- companies paid BILLIONS to electrocute American soldiers....and to poison them with toxic or tainted food.....

And calling out the National Guard for peaceful protests worked so well for Kent State a few decades ago.

BTW, most of Wisconsin's NG equipment is still in Iraq and Afghanistan.....